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OPINION: Religious Symbolism On Proposed Lake Elsinore Memorial Sparks Plea From Proud Veteran

The following open letter is a plea to the Lake Elsinore City Council from a veteran to remove all religious symbolism from the proposed memorial.

I’ve been living in this area for almost 20 years and I rarely say I’m an Atheist in public. After observing that the City of Lake Elsinore can’t even erect a memorial for veterans without adding some sort of religious symbol enhances my paranoia. 

I can understand it when an average person speaks based on misinformation, but I expect more from a committee designated to represent all our neighbors when making a decision like this. 

Here are the facts according to Defense Manpower Data Center, which works under the Office of the Secretary of Defense: Over 26 percent of military personnel indicate they are not religious, but add to that over 7,000 say they are Atheists, over 3,500 follow Islam, over 5,300 are Buddhists, over 1,300 are Agnostic, 771 are Hindu, 522 Unitarian Universalists, and almost 2,500 belong to WICCA (Witchcraft). 

One of my friends, who is a Lake Elsinore resident, a Muslim, and a five-year veteran of the Navy, is petrified to speak about being Muslim in his own city. A plan like the veterans monument subtly tells people like my friend and me that we are not welcome in the city.

I also spent three years in the Army, where I met President Clinton after a successful deployment as a U.N. Peacekeeper in the Former Yugoslavia. I later joined the National Guard for an additional five years when I finished my contract in the Army.   

Nobody is saying religions cannot exist. I would fight for the right for any religion to exist even though I’m an Atheist. I firmly believe in the right of religious freedom in America, but I also don’t understand why, if the city truly wants to honor veterans, there is a need to add any religious emblem?

Am I going to sue the city because I disagree? No. But I ask the City Council, do you want to perpetuate the feeling that my Muslim friend and I have about the City of Lake Elsinore? I served this country with pride, and I’d do it again, but that monument doesn’t represent me. I never kneeled in front of a cross and prayed after a mission. 

LAKE ELSINORE RESIDENT November 5, 2012 at 11:45 pm
I agree with Martha she is right on this one. Martha there are a lot of lunatics (snoopy weber and more ROTFLMAO) who sound like they are threatening you. Martha maybe you should sue them to make their lies about her true. I didn't vote for Malicious and it will be a bonus to the City of Lake Elsinore when she is gone HOME ROTFLMAO. Thank God (I'm a Christian) there are plenty of intelligent 67th District voters who know Phil Paule is the best person to represent us in Sacramento. Martha I don't agree with you much this time you are right. This monument should be inclusive of all people who served our Country with no specific time frame no specific battle as Malicous is attempting to spin the story. Melendez needs to go along with WEBLESS and her PSAC groupies ROTFLMAO THE WASTED FAT GROUP KNOWN AS PSAC.
snoopy November 6, 2012 at 12:02 am
Who cares what you think, you are a mean old lady that lies, and everyone that knows you knows how hateful you are.
snoopy November 6, 2012 at 12:09 am
You need to be sent to Iraq with Martha, in fact you two could become friends, you both have a lot in common.
snoopy November 6, 2012 at 12:17 am
You are Catholic and you don't even defend the cross.
You place your hate and vindictiveness as your number one priority, and are willing to lie, you are also evil. Jesus will deny you, and I doubt God is ROTFLHAO, instead God is sad and dissapointed in you.
Roberto November 6, 2012 at 12:27 am
Look like a well laid out plan. The defense of the cross is already in place at 0 dollars to the taxpayers. The PC's will most likely file an indefensible lawsuit as the cross is being put in place for historical accuracy and not secular intent. To bad liberals, two can play your same silly game.
LAKE ELSINORE RESIDENT November 6, 2012 at 12:29 am
Martha you should hire securitythere are a lot of lunatics (snoopy weber and more ROTFLMAO) who sound like they are threatening you. Martha maybe you should sue them to make their lies about her true. I didn't vote for Malicious and it will be a bonus to the City of Lake Elsinore when she is gone HOME ROTFLMAO. Thank God (I'm a Christian) there are plenty of intelligent 67th District voters who know Phil Paule is the best person to represent us in Sacramento. Martha I don't agree with you much this time you are right. This monument should be inclusive of all people who served our Country with no specific time frame no specific battle as Malicous is attempting to spin the story. Melendez needs to go along with WEBLESS and her PSAC groupies ROTFLMAO THE WASTED FAT GROUP KNOWN AS PSAC.
Constant Comment November 6, 2012 at 12:29 am
I'm beginning to think that this guy is in some sort of a wheelchair situation. For as much time as he spends 'rolling around on the floor laughing', he must be falling out of it, right? Or perhaps some sort of seizures?He can't even get thru one post without rolling around three times! I don't know....but I don't think that any normal sane person would spent all this time rolling around on the floor....just sayin....}~)
Constant Comment November 6, 2012 at 12:41 am
LER , has all that rollin around on the floor made you more paranoid? I don't think that marfa has enough $$ to hire security, so no "kaching, kaching" there! }~( Don't see anyone threatening or telling lies. Besides shes already copped to her nastyness, so what more do you want? Glad to see (by your pic here) that you are working on picking yourself up off that floor. Don't worry you'll get it, in time. Might want to watch pulling all of your hair out in the mean time, ok? }~)
snoopy November 6, 2012 at 01:06 am
Beat at their own game, thanks to the intelligence of Melendez Weber and Hickman. Vote for Weber Morsch and Natasha, these three will continue to protect and move the city forward.
snoopy November 6, 2012 at 01:14 am
LER is looking for a qui tam law suit, she has been doing this for years and hopes for some ka ching ka ching. she feels a thrill stalking and lying about Mr Weber.
I tried to convince Mr Weber to report her for stalking him the tape is the proof, and at least have her fined for posting carbon paper on telephone polls. He said he was to busy to do it at this time, but he was very nice when I spoke to him.
Fox hole atheist November 6, 2012 at 06:48 am
Look at all of the threats and name calling. That's not very Christlike. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion no matter how ignorant it is. As a non- Christian veteran I find it a bit amusing and sad that only the Christians are represented on this memorial. Why is an all inclusive memorial a problem?
jstorchan@yahoo.com November 6, 2012 at 02:00 pm
So you are stating that Jews never served in the Armed services? I thought I saw at least 100 Jews at the Passover service in Korea who were in uniform.
LarryLinn November 6, 2012 at 09:15 pm
Lake Elsinore is still the 909!
Betty Robles November 7, 2012 at 03:19 am
When I read the Bible, I have never read about all the religions we have in this world. I only see two: those that follow satan, who is darkness and evil, and those that follow God through His Son Jesus Christ who is Light! You can put whatever name or whomever you wish to follow for your beliefs, but know, that God loves everyone He created and that means you too, whether you believe this or not. The Cross includes everyone of you, because God loves you. Especially all of our soldiers that so bravely fight for our freedom. We honor you. We respect you. Why can't we respect each others beliefs. This is not so hard. The monument is beautiful! We have the Freedom of Religion. Is it only for what you believe and not for what I believe? Perhaps you want to take and redo the Constitution too. So sad!
Diana R Rising November 16, 2012 at 12:29 am
Betty, I have to respond because you implied that you are quoting the Bible. You are not quoting the Bible. I don't want people to misunderstand the scriptures that I love. The Bible actually mentions many religions, including the one Jesus practiced. Jesus Christ was a Jew and the Star of David represents Jesus's family.
The cross doesn't represent people who don't accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. Our soldiers, who put their life on the line for our freedom, have a right to be represented in a way they would have wanted, not in a way you want. The memorial is not about you at all.
Sew Good November 26, 2012 at 08:14 pm
How does an atheist know what is Christlike? In what way would you design an "all inclusive memorial"?
The Teller of Truth November 26, 2012 at 10:11 pm
The Atheist
An atheist was seated next to a little girl on an airplane and he turned to her and said, "Do you want to talk? Flights go quicker if you strike up conversation with your fellow passenger." The little girl, who had just started to read her book, replied to the total stranger, "What would you want to talk about?" "Oh, I don't know," said the atheist. "How about why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death?" as he smiled smugly. "OK," she said. "Those could be interesting topics but let me ask you a question first. A horse, a cow, and a deer all eat the same stuff - grass. Yet a deer excretes little pellets, while a cow turns out a flat patty, but a horse produces clumps. Why do you suppose that is?" The atheist, visibly surprised by the little girl's intelligence, thinks about it and says, "Hmmm, I have no idea." To which the little girl replies, "Do you really feel qualified to discuss why there is no God, or no Heaven or Hell, or no life after death, when you don't know s--t?" And then she went back to reading her book. Nuff said..........
BLUESGUITAR777 November 26, 2012 at 10:48 pm
ToT - Love it... =)
BLUESGUITAR777 November 28, 2012 at 01:10 pm
Betty is absolutely correct in what she says. The memorial may not be about her specifically - but it's not about atheists or those who would throw a little childish fit because it has a cross on it either. It's for those who have served for this country. Anyone outside the uniform should just shut their mouth.
LarryLinn November 28, 2012 at 10:26 pm
Bluesguitar777, I volunteered and served as an 11Bravo in 1969-1970, with Co.B/2nd/505th/82nd, and Co.A/3rd/22nd/25th. I was awarded a CIB, Bronze Star for Valor, an Air Medal, a Purple Heart, and some other decorations sitting in a drawer. I served with agnostics, and atheists, as well as Christians. We all worked well together, never let religion get between us, and always respected each other's religious preferences. All that I request is that monument should be dedicated the veterans regardless of their religious beliefs, without imposing religion upon them.
Sew Good November 29, 2012 at 12:17 am
@LarryLinn How does this monument impose religious beliefs on anyone? If you don't like that part of the monument, avert your eyes. Focus on the kneeling soldier. Doesn't that part of the monument represent those who served regardless of their religion?
LarryLinn November 29, 2012 at 05:31 am
SewGood; The monument is to be on government land, funded by the taxes from Christians as well as non-Christians. I have no problem if anyone wants to put it on private land, with private funding. You should go back and read Thomas Jefferson’s letter to Danbury Baptist Association in 1802.
Sew Good November 29, 2012 at 01:11 pm
@LarryLinn You didn't answer my question. How does this monument impose religious beliefs on anyone?
BLUESGUITAR777 November 29, 2012 at 01:43 pm
LarryLinn - First, thank you for your service and sacrifice. You have every right to voice your opinion here and I won't argue with you. My problem was with all the civilians throwing a fit over it when it has nothing to do with them whatsoever. I believe only the people (like you) who have served this great nation have the right to express their discontent.
LarryLinn November 29, 2012 at 09:29 pm
Saw Not So Good, As a veteran, it imposes Christianity upon me as well as all the non-Christian veterans funded by taxes. You should do some research. Please start with Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptist Association.
BLUESGUITAR777 November 29, 2012 at 09:32 pm
It's not a graven image. No one is worshiping it or making sacrifices to it, etc.
You need to understand what you're reading instead of taking the words out of context for your own gain.
Sew Good November 29, 2012 at 09:57 pm
From Merriam-Webster.com the definition of > impose <
transitive verb 1 a: to establish or apply by authority <impose a tax> <impose new restrictions> <impose penalties> b: to establish or bring about as if by force <those limits imposed by our own inadequacies — C. H. Plimpton> 2 a: place, set b: to arrange (as pages) in the proper order for printing 3: pass off <impose fake antiques on the public> 4: to force into the company or on the attention of another <impose oneself on others> intransitive verb : to take unwarranted advantage of something <imposed on his good nature> How does the image of a cross force/impose religion on you? I'm curious because proselytizing would be so much easier if displaying a cross was all that it took.
LarryLinn November 29, 2012 at 10:49 pm
From Merriam-Webster.com the definition of > impose <
transitive verb 1 a: to establish or apply by authority <impose a tax> <impose new restrictions> <impose penalties> It uses tax dollars imposing a Christian symbol upon the non-Christian veterans and other non-Christian citizens.
LarryLinn November 29, 2012 at 10:50 pm
Gentlemen
The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing. Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties. I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem. Th Jefferson Jan. 1. 1802.
Merry Hatebear December 4, 2012 at 02:16 pm
Thank you for writing this letter and to Patch posting it, thank you again. I think it is to the point and clearly shows why the cross should not be included in this memorial. I've known many folks who've served in different military and some who are still actively serving today. Of the 10 or so I've known closely only one was Christian (a Catholic). Of the rest - one was Wicca, one was Buddhist, one was an atheist and the others were non-religious/spiritual. There is great diversity among those who serve and that should be considered strongly when making monuments or memorials.
Also, want to add that I am not a random outsider posting on a local topic. I live in Pasadena, CA and my children spend many weekends in the Lake Elsinore/Perris area as their grandparents live down there.

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LAKE ELSINORE RESIDENT June 19, 2013 at 09:39 am
Thanks for the link on Temecula guitarist murder suspects' sketches released
Martha L. Bridges June 19, 2013 at 10:12 am
Somewhere deep in the General Plan Guidelines are references to how often both the plans and theRead More various studies that support the General Plan EIR should be updated. If you think about the rapid growth Riverside County has experienced over the last couple of decades, it is just plain good common sense to require these updates if the document is to remain serviceable. 2003 versions are now 10 years old, and many of the supporting studies in the EIR are even older. It's bad enough when a city or county is forced to work with an old plan, but it is far worse not to have adopted any plan at all. It's much like getting into the car without any sense of direction - let alone a map or GPS.
American Residential Services
LAKE ELSINORE RESIDENT June 19, 2013 at 09:54 am
ADS Plumbing Inc 31875 Corydon St Ste 140 Lake Elsinore, CA 92530 (951) 245-6111
Martha L. Bridges June 19, 2013 at 10:23 am
Doesn't this sound like a very long, unpaid for advertisement for goods and services for sale? AlsoRead More here we are in the tail end of June, so most homeowners have already checked things out and had the equipment tuned up for the high summer heat.
Bd June 17, 2013 at 11:14 am
It would be hard to prove a negative. Are you insinuating that the money for additional policeRead More protection was wasted? Seems like simple logic to me that increased police presence over time would result in less crime, which would in-turn lead to more tourism, which would bring in more money for the City. Laguna Niguel is ranked every year as one of the safest cities in the U.S. Since there's so little crime there, why do they waste their money on any police at all???
LAKE ELSINORE RESIDENT June 17, 2013 at 12:45 pm
I want to see more cops on the street and I want to know if there was less crime.. I think weRead More need more police and I believe the PSAC is a waste of money, money which could go towards more police (no matter how small).
lotsahelp June 18, 2013 at 04:07 pm
Maybe when the week is over they can give you an answer... "There will be more deputies onRead More patrol in Lake Elsinore during the week of June 17-23, a sheriff’s sergeant is reporting. The beefed up patrols come as Lake Elsinore readies for increased summertime traffic. “As part of the city of Lake Elsinore's commitment to public safety the Lake Elsinore Police Department will be deploying additional units to enforce distracted driving, seatbelt violators, drinking and driving, as well as other traffic laws, the week of June 17-23,” according to a news release from Sgt. Peter Giannakakos, who serves out of the Lake Elsinore Sheriff’s Station."
American Girl June 17, 2013 at 04:56 pm
EVMWD rates are a crime! Take those darn pensions away and lower our rates. Over paid slackers!
Kevin Jon Sax June 18, 2013 at 10:59 am
Bobby Swann and John Lloyd are fantastic people. AND they are assets to the city. I'm glad and proudRead More to associate with them. --Kevin, Wildomar citizen
LAKE ELSINORE RESIDENT June 18, 2013 at 12:48 pm
Who is this nut job?
lotsahelp June 18, 2013 at 08:27 pm
Typical ler....you really know how to communicate effectively.
Ken Mayes June 15, 2013 at 06:55 am
The city is so excited they forgot to put this event on the cities website.
Rose Vicente June 15, 2013 at 09:16 am
Why not a parade in the streets?
Martha L. Bridges June 15, 2013 at 07:20 pm
Rose, we've had five years of having celebrations large and small with all the trappings ofRead More city-hood that Bridgette Moore could conjure up - right down to spending money the city didn't have to purchase monogrammed M&M. I suggest it's time to ring the bell and then get back to the real work of running the city. That would include doing the essential foundational work that has been skipped over in favor of window dressing and nonsense for the first five years.
scott osborne June 13, 2013 at 12:07 am
not to mention the day before someone hit a parked car on the same street, don't worry police showedRead More a good 50 min later, Wildomar needs a discount from the sheriffs dept for sure
Toni McAllister (Editor) June 12, 2013 at 05:02 pm
Yes ... Thanks for the reminder Tammi ...Read More http://lakeelsinore-wildomar.patch.com/groups/schools/p/lakeside-high-school-pool-open-to-public-through-aug-2
Barbara Dye June 13, 2013 at 12:02 am
Thanks Toni. I was just going to leave Tammi a comment about it.
BLUESGUITAR777 June 11, 2013 at 10:16 am
That place is weird. Cult like almost in their practices. The holding out the last note of everyRead More worship song to "invoke the spirit" is just totally unnecessary. I was glad to leave.
lotsahelp June 6, 2013 at 12:34 pm
TY for catching this!!!
Jeff Greene June 8, 2013 at 09:57 am
To be clear, Supervisor Jeffries is not yet in support of charging for parking at the hospital, butRead More supported Supervisor Stone's request to have it evaluated, and is willing to consider it based on the results. In his quotes that day he mentioned that when Kaiser started charging for their new structure, they almost immediately changed their mind because the response was so negative. Supervisor Jeffries' main interest in supporting a study of all the county's parking facilities was to determine whether we could save money on the parking structures we already charge for by going to an automated system, rather than staffing it full time with multiple county employees. We have been told that we are actually losing money on the fees we collect for parking, and if that is true, we want to either switch to a cheaper collection system or eliminate the fees entirely.
Chris Twining June 13, 2013 at 12:55 am
Let's hope not. Charging for parking, especially at a hospital, is disgusting to say the least. IRead More got an idea. Let's see if just one elected official can so SOMETHING!!! other than sitting around trying to figure out more and more ways to separate us from our money. Do you have a clue as to what's going on around you? Do you get out of bed in the morning? turn on the TV? go outside? You are 10 years too late. That kind of thing from elected politicians is over. Stop trying to raise money. There are so many things out there you could be doing to make a good name for yourself, and 99% of those things involve cutting spending. Get to the bottom of some things. Imagine how people would react to that. They would swarm at your feet and hold you in high regard. And if you ever find yourself in the hospital, I will gladly come visit you as long as I dont have to pay to park.